Sunday, March 9, 2008
Original Bracketology
I decided to do my own Bracketology this week. This is partially because I'm flying home tomorrow and won't be able to write about Lunardi and Parrish's updates until late Monday. But also, this gives me something to work off of between now and Sunday, and mess around with as the conference tournaments progress.
For now, I've done the top six lines (that sounds wrong). I guess I'll do 7-12 in the next couple days. I won't be doing the automatic bids from the small conferences, because that would be an exercise in futility. Not that this isn't.
This is probably self explanatory, but it goes overall record, conference record, RPI, and then Pomeroy ranking. For these purposes, I didn't really take the Pomeroy rating into account, since I don't think the committee will. Still, I think it's good to include that.
#1 Seeds
North Carolina- 29-2 (14-2), RPI #2, KPom #6
UCLA- 28-3 (16-2), RPI #6, KPom #2
Memphis- 30-1 (16-0), RPI #3, KPom #3
Tennessee- 28-3 (14-2), RPI #1, KPom #15
Are these the four best teams in the country? No, they are not. But at this point it's pretty clear that these are the four with the best resumes, which is what matters for this exercise.
North Carolina and UCLA are pretty much locked in. Should the Bruins have won those two games this weekend? No, clearly not. But they did, and that got them to 16-2 in the Pac-10, which should absolutely put them here to stay.
Memphis is hosting their conference tournament. It is highly unlikely that they lose, but if they do, I think they'll probably drop. That's a bridge we'll cross when we reach though, and there's upwards of an 80% chance we'll never reach it.
Tennessee is playing for their top seed in the SEC tournament. Win it, and they'll clearly be a 1. But if they stumble, they'll very likely fall down to a 2.
#2 Seeds
Kansas- 28-3 (13-3), RPI #8, KPom #1
Georgetown- 25-4 (15-3), RPI #7, KPom #8
Texas- 26-5 (13-3), RPI #5, KPom #9
Duke- 26-4 (13-3), RPI #4, KPom #5
Out of this group, I think only Kansas and Georgetown have the chance to move up. The last two 1 seeds will be some combination of those two, Memphis, and Tennessee. If Tennessee is 31-3, against the #1 SOS in the country (by RPI), they are going to get in over a 30-3 Kansas team that has played the RPI's 63rd most difficult schedule. The fact that the actual strength of these schedules is extremely comparable is probably not going to play a big role. If Kansas wanted to control their own destiny for a top seed, they shouldn't have lost to Oklahoma St. It's really that simple.
I was torn between Duke and Wisconsin for that #8 spot, but I feel like the RPIs could be a deciding factor. Regardless, there is a lot of potential for change among the bottom half of this line. Neither Duke nor Texas will be favored to win their conference tournament. One #3 seed will, and another has a good chance as well, so it's very likely that there will be some movement among those four.
#3 Seeds
Wisconsin- 26-4 (16-2), RPI #12, KPom #4
Louisville- 24-7 (14-4), RPI #11, KPom #7
Xavier- 26-5 (14-2), RPI #9, KPom #16
Notre Dame- 24-6 (14-4), RPI #19, KPom #25
Wisconsin will likely move up if they win the B10 tourney. What a disaster that conference is. Here are the top two road wins for each of the top four teams in the conference:
Wisconsin: Texas, Indiana
Indiana: Ohio St., Illinois
Purdue: Wisconsin, Illinois
Michigan St.: Illinois, Minnesota
That Illini team, with their 5-13 conference record, shows up a few too many times. I really have a hard time taking any of these teams seriously, save Wisconsin. My favorite is Michigan St. Let's extend this a little bit- their third best road win is @Bradley. Which is not good. But here's where it gets absurd: their fourth best is @Northwestern. How is that possible? Well, they only have four road wins. 4-6 on the road, including losses to Iowa and Penn St. Somehow that team does not instill fear in me.
Yes, my beloved Louisville squad lost to Georgetown on Saturday. However, they went down in the exact fashion that I'd hoped- they only lost by three. So, they will continue to go unnoticed, but I can keep thinking they're really good. Which is all I ever wanted, really. If they win at MSG on Saturday night, they'll have to get some consideration for a 2, depending on what happens with Duke, Texas, and Wisconsin. (I did love when Pitino called Georgetown "lucky", by the way. That was fantastic.)
The Fighting Irish sneak onto the line ahead of Purdue and Stanford, on the strength of having a non-conference resume that is at least respectable. Stanford played nobody, yet still managed to lose to Siena. Purdue did beat Louisville, but lost to Wofford at home, and Iowa St. in Vegas.
#4 Seeds
Stanford- 24-6 (13-5), RPI #17, KPom #14
Purdue- 24-7 (15-3), RPI #38, KPom #21
Connecticut- 24-7 (13-5), RPI #15, KPom #26
Drake- 28-4 (15-3), RPI #13, KPom #28
The Cardinal picked a bad weekend to lose twice. It's really not their fault that they had to travel to LA to close out the Pac-10 slate, but the timing is unfortunate. If they reach the finals, they've got a shot at moving back up to a 3. That non-conference is really ugly though, even without Lopez.
I had completely forgotten that Purdue beat Louisville in December. I honestly do not remember this at all.
#5 Seeds
Indiana- 25-6 (14-4), RPI #16, KPom #17
Washington St.- 23-7 (11-7), RPI #20, KPom #10
Butler- 28-3 (16-2), RPI #18, KPom #34
Vanderbilt- 25-6 (10-6), RPI #10, KPom #50
Indiana lost to Penn St. on Sunday. Even so, they did finish 14-4 in the Big 10. A good showing in the conference tournament probably moves them back up to a 4.
When considering talent rather than resume, Butler and Vanderbilt are both disgustingly overseeded. Sometimes the 5-12 upsets pick themselves. We'll see who they draw in round 1.
#6 Seeds
Marquette- 22-8 (11-7)
Clemson- 22-8 (10-6)
Gonzaga- 25-6 (13-1)
USC- 20-10 (11-7)
Ten days ago, I was on the Clemson bandwagon. Then they needed a miracle comeback to beat Maryland, lost to Georgia Tech, and nearly lost at home to Virginia Tech. I am no longer on the bandwagon.
Daniel Hackett has not been very good since returning two weeks ago, shooting 4/18 from the field, with 10 assists and 10 turnovers in four games. Despite this, USC has gone 3-1, including a sweep of Cal and Stanford this weekend. If he gets going, watch out. Their starting five of Jefferson, Gibson, Mayo, Lewis and Hackett could definitely make some noise in either of their upcoming tournaments.
For now, I've done the top six lines (that sounds wrong). I guess I'll do 7-12 in the next couple days. I won't be doing the automatic bids from the small conferences, because that would be an exercise in futility. Not that this isn't.
This is probably self explanatory, but it goes overall record, conference record, RPI, and then Pomeroy ranking. For these purposes, I didn't really take the Pomeroy rating into account, since I don't think the committee will. Still, I think it's good to include that.
#1 Seeds
North Carolina- 29-2 (14-2), RPI #2, KPom #6
UCLA- 28-3 (16-2), RPI #6, KPom #2
Memphis- 30-1 (16-0), RPI #3, KPom #3
Tennessee- 28-3 (14-2), RPI #1, KPom #15
Are these the four best teams in the country? No, they are not. But at this point it's pretty clear that these are the four with the best resumes, which is what matters for this exercise.
North Carolina and UCLA are pretty much locked in. Should the Bruins have won those two games this weekend? No, clearly not. But they did, and that got them to 16-2 in the Pac-10, which should absolutely put them here to stay.
Memphis is hosting their conference tournament. It is highly unlikely that they lose, but if they do, I think they'll probably drop. That's a bridge we'll cross when we reach though, and there's upwards of an 80% chance we'll never reach it.
Tennessee is playing for their top seed in the SEC tournament. Win it, and they'll clearly be a 1. But if they stumble, they'll very likely fall down to a 2.
#2 Seeds
Kansas- 28-3 (13-3), RPI #8, KPom #1
Georgetown- 25-4 (15-3), RPI #7, KPom #8
Texas- 26-5 (13-3), RPI #5, KPom #9
Duke- 26-4 (13-3), RPI #4, KPom #5
Out of this group, I think only Kansas and Georgetown have the chance to move up. The last two 1 seeds will be some combination of those two, Memphis, and Tennessee. If Tennessee is 31-3, against the #1 SOS in the country (by RPI), they are going to get in over a 30-3 Kansas team that has played the RPI's 63rd most difficult schedule. The fact that the actual strength of these schedules is extremely comparable is probably not going to play a big role. If Kansas wanted to control their own destiny for a top seed, they shouldn't have lost to Oklahoma St. It's really that simple.
I was torn between Duke and Wisconsin for that #8 spot, but I feel like the RPIs could be a deciding factor. Regardless, there is a lot of potential for change among the bottom half of this line. Neither Duke nor Texas will be favored to win their conference tournament. One #3 seed will, and another has a good chance as well, so it's very likely that there will be some movement among those four.
#3 Seeds
Wisconsin- 26-4 (16-2), RPI #12, KPom #4
Louisville- 24-7 (14-4), RPI #11, KPom #7
Xavier- 26-5 (14-2), RPI #9, KPom #16
Notre Dame- 24-6 (14-4), RPI #19, KPom #25
Wisconsin will likely move up if they win the B10 tourney. What a disaster that conference is. Here are the top two road wins for each of the top four teams in the conference:
Wisconsin: Texas, Indiana
Indiana: Ohio St., Illinois
Purdue: Wisconsin, Illinois
Michigan St.: Illinois, Minnesota
That Illini team, with their 5-13 conference record, shows up a few too many times. I really have a hard time taking any of these teams seriously, save Wisconsin. My favorite is Michigan St. Let's extend this a little bit- their third best road win is @Bradley. Which is not good. But here's where it gets absurd: their fourth best is @Northwestern. How is that possible? Well, they only have four road wins. 4-6 on the road, including losses to Iowa and Penn St. Somehow that team does not instill fear in me.
Yes, my beloved Louisville squad lost to Georgetown on Saturday. However, they went down in the exact fashion that I'd hoped- they only lost by three. So, they will continue to go unnoticed, but I can keep thinking they're really good. Which is all I ever wanted, really. If they win at MSG on Saturday night, they'll have to get some consideration for a 2, depending on what happens with Duke, Texas, and Wisconsin. (I did love when Pitino called Georgetown "lucky", by the way. That was fantastic.)
The Fighting Irish sneak onto the line ahead of Purdue and Stanford, on the strength of having a non-conference resume that is at least respectable. Stanford played nobody, yet still managed to lose to Siena. Purdue did beat Louisville, but lost to Wofford at home, and Iowa St. in Vegas.
#4 Seeds
Stanford- 24-6 (13-5), RPI #17, KPom #14
Purdue- 24-7 (15-3), RPI #38, KPom #21
Connecticut- 24-7 (13-5), RPI #15, KPom #26
Drake- 28-4 (15-3), RPI #13, KPom #28
The Cardinal picked a bad weekend to lose twice. It's really not their fault that they had to travel to LA to close out the Pac-10 slate, but the timing is unfortunate. If they reach the finals, they've got a shot at moving back up to a 3. That non-conference is really ugly though, even without Lopez.
I had completely forgotten that Purdue beat Louisville in December. I honestly do not remember this at all.
#5 Seeds
Indiana- 25-6 (14-4), RPI #16, KPom #17
Washington St.- 23-7 (11-7), RPI #20, KPom #10
Butler- 28-3 (16-2), RPI #18, KPom #34
Vanderbilt- 25-6 (10-6), RPI #10, KPom #50
Indiana lost to Penn St. on Sunday. Even so, they did finish 14-4 in the Big 10. A good showing in the conference tournament probably moves them back up to a 4.
When considering talent rather than resume, Butler and Vanderbilt are both disgustingly overseeded. Sometimes the 5-12 upsets pick themselves. We'll see who they draw in round 1.
#6 Seeds
Marquette- 22-8 (11-7)
Clemson- 22-8 (10-6)
Gonzaga- 25-6 (13-1)
USC- 20-10 (11-7)
Ten days ago, I was on the Clemson bandwagon. Then they needed a miracle comeback to beat Maryland, lost to Georgia Tech, and nearly lost at home to Virginia Tech. I am no longer on the bandwagon.
Daniel Hackett has not been very good since returning two weeks ago, shooting 4/18 from the field, with 10 assists and 10 turnovers in four games. Despite this, USC has gone 3-1, including a sweep of Cal and Stanford this weekend. If he gets going, watch out. Their starting five of Jefferson, Gibson, Mayo, Lewis and Hackett could definitely make some noise in either of their upcoming tournaments.
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Gtown has been lucky this year. However, let's take a look at their supposed "lucky" games:
ReplyDelete- @ West Va. - ended with a block by Pat Ewing Jr. that some saw as a block, others saw as a goaltend. It was bang-bang, 50/50, and is tough to call a goaltend there.
- vs. Villanova - ended with a pretty poor foul call to essentially hand Gtown the game. However, it was a tie ballgame at the time. It is not as if Gtown was losing and hit 2 gift FTs to win.
- vs. UConn - Roy Hibbert hits a 3 at the end to win it. Again though, this was in a tie game. There is no guarantee that if Hibbert misses this shot that UConn will win.
- @ Marquette - Wallace is fouled taking a 3, hits 3 FT's to send to OT. This was a good call by the refs. This was a blatant foolish foul.
When you look at it, Georgetown was a bit "lucky", but not so much that you would call them a joke. And what team isn't a bit lucky during a winning season? Look at UCLA this past week. They were crazy lucky and every analyst in America will still put them in the Final Four. Also, why would Pitino provide the Hoyas any bulletin board fodder after losing to them?
I like your assessment here. I have been trying to determine which rating system(s) I like the most. I lean towards throwing the polls out right away because the media doesn't seem to know much lately -- especially ESPN.
ReplyDeleteRPI and Pomeroy are vastly different. If you look at your 4 and 5 lines, the average RPI is 20.75 for the 4's and 16 for the 5's. Average KPom is 22.25 for the 4's and 27.75 for the 5's.
Considering that the committee (over)values RPI and doesn't admit to using KPom, you'd almost think those could conceivably flip-flop? I highly doubt it but I found that odd.
I'll be in Vegas for the first round and will be wagering highly against both Butler and Vandy.
Also, did Drake really impress you this weekend or was the competition not good enough to move them up from the 4 line?
ReplyDeleteYou definitely don't see them going down, do you?
Did Pitino call them a "joke"? I'm honestly asking, I didn't see that. If so, that's a little over the top.
ReplyDeleteThe point about them is that they've won all these games that could go either way. Even ignoring the circumstances surrounding the wins, they are 5-0 in games decided by three points or less. This is not to pick on them- Tenny and Vandy have been "luckier", but they're certainly fortunate to be 25-4. That doesn't mean they're not good.
Throwing the polls out right away is a good decision.
If you're looking at which teams should make the tournament, RPI is better. For the teams that could make a deep run, Pomeroy is better. They are vastly different, and really serve different purposes.
I think #4 is fair for the Drake. Can you really put them ahead of any of those #3s? I don't think so.
I posted as anonymous above.
ReplyDeleteNo Pitino didn't call them a joke, but I feel like the implication from his comments was that Gtown is overrated. I just felt it was a weird thing for him to say especially AFTER the Hoyas beat Louisville. He then gave the standard "they flat out beat us today, they were the better team" refrain to almost back down from his Gtown is lucky comment. Hopefully we get a Gtown-Louisville matchup next Saturday night, on the neutral court of neutral courts (MSG), to find out who is a stronger team.
I must clarify I am a Georgetown alum and big fan, so I'm probably biased here. However I am critical of the team, and not nearly as much of a blindly patriotic Hoya fan as say, this guy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x8EvNnD-wWc.
The Hoyas have been a frustrating team to watch this year, sooo many turnovers. I wanted to break my remote control during the Syracuse and first Louisville games. I give them credit though for winning the close games. They would be overrated as a 2 or possibly 1 seed in the tourney though.
Anyways, keep up the great work, this blog is "required reading" along with FJM, deadspin, and awfulannouncing for me.
"Hopefully we get a Gtown-Louisville matchup next Saturday night, on the neutral court of neutral courts (MSG), to find out who is a stronger team."
ReplyDeleteThat would be a good way to solve this, wouldn't it.
"They would be overrated as a 2 or possibly 1 seed in the tourney though."
I'd say their talent probably warrants a low 2/high 3. But 15-3 in the B10 certainly deserves at least a 2.
"Anyways, keep up the great work, this blog is "required reading" along with FJM, deadspin, and awfulannouncing for me."
Those blogs are a lot better than this one. Thanks, though.
VW,
ReplyDeleteLooking for an unbiased view (not mine since I'm an alum) on Dayton's increasing chances of an at-large bid assuming they aren't bounced by SLU on Wednesday. I'll make a quick case: OOC wins @ Louisville, vs. Pitt... 8-8 in an improved A-10 conference, missing 2nd leading scorer Chris TopFlight Wright for 16 games (13-1 before his injury) but he appears to be ready for the conference tourney this week.
Parrish currently has them the last team out. As long as teams like Elon, Cleveland State, and San Diego don't steal automatic conference bids this week, do my Flyers still have a shot?
On another note, earlier in the season the A-10 was looking strong enough to get 3 bids, maybe even 4. Now that a bunch of teams are clustered between 9-7 and 7-9, why are the bids disappearing instead of hearing about how the conference teams beat up on each other as we would in the ACC, Big11, etc.? Is it the BCS bias?
Big fan of the blog, but you guys will regret hating on Vandy. They may be an awful road team, but I expect them to excel on a neutral site coming tourney time and here's why:
ReplyDelete1) Experience: Remember that these guys were a Jeff Green travel away from advancing to the Elite Eight a year ago. Three starters (Shan Foster, Alex Gordon and Ross Neltner) and three bench players return from that squad so don't expect nerves to be a factor like it is for other teams.
2) Shan Foster: Have you guys seen him play? He is flat-out ridiculous. The SEC Player of the Year dropped 42 on Miss. State and with his size (6'6) and release (ball above his head) and range, he can get his shot off from pretty much any where on the floor.
3) The Thunder from Down Under: Freshman center A.J. Ogilvy gives the Commodores the post presence they've been missing. While not too athletic, he's very skilled, uses his body well and does a great job getting to the foul line. If Vandy doesn't shoot well from outside, it still has a chance to win with Ogilvy.
Note: Disregard this point if Ogilvy plays like a bitch and picks up two stupid fouls in the first 30 seconds.
4) Solid guard play: Good tourney teams usually have strong guards and Vandy has just that. Point guard Jermaine Beal leads the SEC in assist to turnover ratio and Alex Gordon is a solid (albeit streaky) shooter. And I hear that Foster kid is pretty good too.
5) Coaching: Kevin Stallings is one of the most underrated coaches in the country. He's a great motivator and will undoubtedly have his team prepared to play come next Thursday or Friday.
What do you guys think?
"They may be an awful road team, but I expect them to excel on a neutral site coming tourney time"
ReplyDeleteThis made me curious about the tourney performance of awful road teams, so I did a few minutes a research. Right now on teamrankings.com, Vandy is 11th in Home Rating and 72nd in Away Rating. I can only compare that to end-of-year rankings from the past, but I figure since the tourney is on neutral courts it wouldn't affect these ratings TOO much.
The ratings archive goes back to 1999, so I looked for all teams in that span that were:
A) ranked 20th or better at home
B) ranked 51st or worse on the road
C) seeded 1 through 6
The results do not look good for Vandy. Here are the only matches:
Year #Seed Team (Home/Away) - Result
----------------------------------------------------------
2006 #3 Iowa (2/53) - 1st round upset
2005 #6 LSU (15/51) - 1st round upset
2003 #6 Missouri (17/57) - 2nd round loss to #3 seed
2002 #6 Texas Tech (17/51) - 1st round upset
2001 #5 Virginia (4/56) - 1st round upset
That's a grand total of 1 win for 5 teams who were all favored in their 1st round games.
Oh, I should add that last year's ratings aren't available, so it's only the 1999-2006 tournaments.
ReplyDeleteThat is great stuff, David. I wasn't aware such data was available, I might try to do some further research on this kind of thing. Thanks for that.
ReplyDeleteDavid, great research. And I have to agree, it does not look good for Vandy, although the sample size is admittedly small.
ReplyDeleteYeah, the sample is tiny. To try to get some more data I looked at the rest of the seeds as well, and they did much better. I'm not gonna type up each team individually, but ...
ReplyDelete#7 ... 1 team, L in R1
#8 ... 3 teams, 3 R1 wins
#9 ... 2 teams, 1 L in R1, 1 R1 win
#10 ... 5 teams: 2 L in R1, 2 made Sweet 16, 1 made Elite 8
#11 ... 2 teams: 1 L in R1, 1 made Sweet 16
#12 ... 3 teams: all lost in R1
#13 ... 2 teams: 1 L in R1, 1 made Sweet 16
So, 5 of 12 double-digit seeds made the Sweet 16, which is very good. Of course, non of them were major conference teams, and 3 of the 5 actually had winning road records. Their ratings were just low because of poor SOS.
I don't know what to think.